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Fantasy » alt.fan.pratchett » [I] Very Large Numbers
[I] Very Large Numbers [message #264314] Do, 11 Mai 2006 03:02
Stacie Hanes  
I'm whittling away at my final Marx essay, and I'm saying in part of it that
incarnation/personification/embodiment is important because large numbers of
things--wealth, labour, the working class--are inherently challenging to
process, cognitively.

How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over multiples
of billions?

How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and suchlike?


I'm curious just for general purposes, but to be helpful for the essay I
need to know tonight. Meanwhile, I will soldier on without it. I can write
the passage without more info, but I can only speak with any authority on
English use.

--
Stacie, 4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons, Bondage-happy predator,
Speaker-To-Students,
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion & AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible
warning." C. Aird, _His Burial Too_
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264333 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 09:35
SeekUp  
"Stacie Hanes" <house_damodred [at] yahoo.com> wrote

> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over
> multiples of billions?
>
> How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and
> suchlike?


In Afrikaans there are words for million, billion, etc, and for bigger
numbers it is simply a translation of maths-speak. You would say "Tien tot
die mag vyftien" for "Ten to the power of fifteen", for example.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264337 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 10:14
PleegWat  
In article <d2w8g.1083$y4.505 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Stacie
Hanes says...
> I'm whittling away at my final Marx essay, and I'm saying in part of it that
> incarnation/personification/embodiment is important because large numbers of
> things--wealth, labour, the working class--are inherently challenging to
> process, cognitively.
>
> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over multiples
> of billions?
>
> How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and suchlike?
>
> I'm curious just for general purposes, but to be helpful for the essay I
> need to know tonight. Meanwhile, I will soldier on without it. I can write
> the passage without more info, but I can only speak with any authority on
> English use.

Here in The Netherlands I'm sure about these:

10 to the 6th power 1 miljoen
10 to the 9th power 1 miljard
10 to the 12th power 1 biljoen
10 to the 15th power 1 biljard
10 to the 18th power 1 triljoen
10 to the 21st power 1 triljard
10 to the 24th power 1 quadriljoen
10 to the 27th power 1 quadriljard

I'm quite sure a similar system is used in other countries. Certainly
the first part of the name (mi - mono - 1, bi - 2, tri - 3, quad - 4)
are numerics (greek I think) that indicate what power of one million
you're dealing with.

This info I remember from a wiki article I once read. At the moment I
seem to be unable to get to wikipedia, so I can't look for a link there.

--
PleegWat
Remove caps to reply
Re: Very Large Numbers [message #264340 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 10:41
Jordi  
Stacie Hanes wrote:
> I'm whittling away at my final Marx essay, and I'm saying in part of it t=
hat
> incarnation/personification/embodiment is important because large numbers=
of
> things--wealth, labour, the working class--are inherently challenging to
> process, cognitively.
>
> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over multipl=
es
> of billions?
>
> How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and suchlik=
e?
>
>

For Spanish

10^6 is a mill=F3n
10^9 is a millardo (a recently imported word, not widely used, most
times a simple 'mil millones' will be used)
10^12 is a bill=F3n
10^18 is a trill=F3n
10^24 is a cuadrill=F3n
10^30 is a quintill=F3n
etc.

I'm pretty sure the French system is the same (that is, we got it from
the French).


J=2E
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264346 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 13:00
Jens Ayton  
PleegWat:
> Stacie Hanes says:
>>
>> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over multiples
>> of billions?
>
> Here in The Netherlands I'm sure about these:
>
> 10 to the 6th power 1 miljoen
> 10 to the 9th power 1 miljard
> 10 to the 12th power 1 biljoen
> 10 to the 15th power 1 biljard
> 10 to the 18th power 1 triljoen
> 10 to the 21st power 1 triljard
> 10 to the 24th power 1 quadriljoen
> 10 to the 27th power 1 quadriljard

It's much the same in Swedish (miljon, miljard, ...). In theory this
is also the system used by Real English, but in practice most people
will get confused if you start talking about billiards. :-)


--
\\\\ Jens Ayton, Fratello di Vetinari 36.3636363636364% insane
\\\\\__, Bringing sarcastic one-liners to the common hedgehog since 1999
\\\\\`/
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264364 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 15:18
Graycat  
On Thu, 11 May 2006 11:00:53 GMT, Jens Ayton
<PKWVQQGMIMEU [at] spammotel.com> jotted down:

>PleegWat:
>> Stacie Hanes says:
>>>
>>> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over multiples
>>> of billions?
>>
>> Here in The Netherlands I'm sure about these:
>>
>> 10 to the 6th power 1 miljoen
>> 10 to the 9th power 1 miljard
>> 10 to the 12th power 1 biljoen
>> 10 to the 15th power 1 biljard
>> 10 to the 18th power 1 triljoen
>> 10 to the 21st power 1 triljard
>> 10 to the 24th power 1 quadriljoen
>> 10 to the 27th power 1 quadriljard
>
> It's much the same in Swedish (miljon, miljard, ...). In theory this
>is also the system used by Real English, but in practice most people
>will get confused if you start talking about billiards. :-)

Though I've never seen/heard anyone use those last two -
basically once you're talking trilions you're talking
fantasy numbers anyway - as in "my dad has a billion
trillion times more money than yours". What number of zeroes
that _actually_ means is then rather unimportant.

For maths/physics/science purposes 10^6, 10^9 etc is used.
(In Swedish 10 upphöjt i/till 6 - basically 10
heightened/raised to 6) And for numbers not starting with 1
it's 2x10^6 etc. Same as everywhere else I imagine.

--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264380 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 17:11
Stacie Hanes  
Graycat wrote:
> On Thu, 11 May 2006 11:00:53 GMT, Jens Ayton
> <PKWVQQGMIMEU [at] spammotel.com> jotted down:
>
>> PleegWat:
>>> Stacie Hanes says:
>>>>
>>>> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers,
>>>> over multiples of billions?
<snip>

> Though I've never seen/heard anyone use those last two -
> basically once you're talking trilions you're talking
> fantasy numbers anyway

Exactly my point in the paper. I'm glad to have it confirmed in so many
language.

Thanks much, Graycat and everypne else.

--
Stacie, 4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons, Bondage-happy predator,
Speaker-To-Students, AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion &
AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED "If you can't be a good example, you'll
just have to be a horrible warning." C. Aird, _His Burial Too_
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264400 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 18:57
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach Jens Ayton:

> PleegWat:
>> Stacie Hanes says:
>>>
>>> How do languages other than English deal with large
>>> numbers, over multiples of billions?
>>
>> Here in The Netherlands I'm sure about these:
>>
>> 10 to the 6th power 1 miljoen
>> 10 to the 9th power 1 miljard
>> 10 to the 12th power 1 biljoen
>> 10 to the 15th power 1 biljard
>> 10 to the 18th power 1 triljoen
>> 10 to the 21st power 1 triljard
>> 10 to the 24th power 1 quadriljoen
>> 10 to the 27th power 1 quadriljard
>
> It's much the same in Swedish (miljon, miljard, ...). In
> theory this
> is also the system used by Real English, but in practice
> most people will get confused if you start talking about
> billiards. :-)

In Real English (although everyone uses the American terms
these days) "milliard" is rarely used, but 10^15 is just a
thousand billion.

Which is a shame, because I'd love to follow up the wizards'
description of Roundworld planets as "balls" with a guess that
the universe contains so many billiard balls...

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"What do monsters have nightmares about?"
"Me!"
-The Doctor
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264409 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 19:43
alec  
In article <d2w8g.1083$y4.505 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
house_damodred [at] yahoo.com says...
> I'm whittling away at my final Marx essay, and I'm saying in part of it that
> incarnation/personification/embodiment is important because large numbers of
> things--wealth, labour, the working class--are inherently challenging to
> process, cognitively.
>
> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over multiples
> of billions?
>
> How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and suchlike?

Just as English goes up in powers of 10^3, Japanese goes up in powers of
10^4, so as well as a word for 1,000 they have a word for 10,000, and
100,000 is expressed as 10 * 10,000 and so on.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264421 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 20:23
Brenda  
Alec Cawley said:

> In article <d2w8g.1083$y4.505 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> house_damodred [at] yahoo.com says...
>>
>> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over
>> multiples of billions?
>>
>> How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and
>> suchlike?
>
> Just as English goes up in powers of 10^3,

Factors of 10^6. It's American that scales by factors of 10^3.

In English, we have:

million: 10^ 6
billion: 10^12
trillion: 10^18
quadrillion: 10^24

etc. But they do things rather differently on the other side of the lake.

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264422 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 20:24
Jens Ayton  
Alec Cawley:
>
> Just as English goes up in powers of 10^3, Japanese goes up in powers of
> 10^4, so as well as a word for 1,000 they have a word for 10,000, and
> 100,000 is expressed as 10 * 10,000 and so on.

English has a word for 10 000. It's a "myriad". (From classical Greek.
The less general usage is newer.)


--
\\\\ Jens Ayton, Fratello di Vetinari 36.3636363636364% insane
\\\\\__, Bringing sarcastic one-liners to the common hedgehog since 1999
\\\\\`/
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264423 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 20:45
Daibhid Ceannaideach  
Also Sprach Richard Heathfield:

> Alec Cawley said:

>> Just as English goes up in powers of 10^3,
>
> Factors of 10^6. It's American that scales by factors of
> 10^3.
>
> In English, we have:
>
> million: 10^ 6
> billion: 10^12
> trillion: 10^18
> quadrillion: 10^24
>
> etc. But they do things rather differently on the other
> side of the lake.

Although rarely used, we have "milliard" for a US billion,
although not "billiard", etc., as other countries do.

--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"What do monsters have nightmares about?"
"Me!"
-The Doctor
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264444 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 23:08
alec  
In article <zeGdnSQ-X46CHP7ZRVnyuA [at] bt.com>, invalid [at] invalid.invalid
says...
> Alec Cawley said:
>
> > In article <d2w8g.1083$y4.505 [at] newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> > house_damodred [at] yahoo.com says...
> >>
> >> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over
> >> multiples of billions?
> >>
> >> How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and
> >> suchlike?
> >
> > Just as English goes up in powers of 10^3,
>
> Factors of 10^6. It's American that scales by factors of 10^3.
>
> In English, we have:
>

thousand 10^3
> million: 10^ 6
thousand million 10^9
> billion: 10^12
> trillion: 10^18
> quadrillion: 10^24
>
> etc. But they do things rather differently on the other side of the lake.

While it is allege dthat billion means 10^12 this side of the pond, I
have never, ever, actually seen that used for real. Whenever anyone
mentions a billion, it is 10^9. Also, I think we need a word for 10^9
(which does occur in normal use, for example when discussing national or
NHS budgets) much more than we need one for 10^12 (which is
exceptional). Sio, IMO, the alleged British usage is (a) fictitious, and
(b) useless, and I admit that I am ready (in this matter alone) to
follow the American style.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264446 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 23:10
Arthur Hagen  
Graycat <graycat.meow [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Though I've never seen/heard anyone use those last two -
> basically once you're talking trilions you're talking
> fantasy numbers anyway - as in "my dad has a billion
> trillion times more money than yours". What number of zeroes
> that _actually_ means is then rather unimportant.

Not entirely true. I remember working at the international transfers
department of a bank, and we had to send back a batch of paper-trail
calculators headquarters had ordered as replacement for the old noisy
machines, because the new ones could only do 12+2 digits, and we needed at
least 18. Some currencies are devalued, and when you're talking about
interbank fund exchanges you can end up with pretty huge amounts.

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264448 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 23:23
Arthur Hagen  
Alec Cawley <alec [at] spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
> While it is allege dthat billion means 10^12 this side of the pond, I
> have never, ever, actually seen that used for real. Whenever anyone
> mentions a billion, it is 10^9. Also, I think we need a word for 10^9

What's wrong with "Tera" and "Giga"? As in "The mayor has granted funding a
Terapound project to adjust the water level in the Thames in preparation for
the Southwark beach resort project."

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264451 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 23:27
Klaus Drechsler  
Daibhid Ceanaideach wrote:

> Also Sprach Richard Heathfield:
>
>>etc. But they do things rather differently on the other
>>side of the lake.
>
> Although rarely used, we have "milliard" for a US billion,
> although not "billiard", etc., as other countries do.

Yep. I remember being very confused about that years ago, thinking why
the ### do the americans mess that up? Do they *want*
missunderstandings? Talking about Dollars, for example, it *does* make
quite a difference if you mean a this-side-of-the-ocean-billion or a
that-side-of-the-ocean-billion.

Well, I indeed found a satisfying explanation at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion (especially "short scale" and "long
scale").

Now I'm happy again. Now I understand the world.

Cheers,
Klaus
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264454 ] Do, 11 Mai 2006 23:54
Tim Sharrock  
On Thu, 11 May 2006 22:08:44 +0100, Alec Cawley
<alec [at] spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
>While it is alleged that billion means 10^12 this side of the pond, I
>have never, ever, actually seen that used for real. Whenever anyone
>mentions a billion, it is 10^9. Also, I think we need a word for 10^9
>(which does occur in normal use, for example when discussing national or
>NHS budgets) much more than we need one for 10^12 (which is
>exceptional). Sio, IMO, the alleged British usage is (a) fictitious, and
>(b) useless, and I admit that I am ready (in this matter alone) to
>follow the American style.

Our local supermarket (in the UK), I believe, treats 1 billion as
1,000,000,000,000. It claims on a big signpost near the recycling
bins something like "people in the UK use 6,000,000,000,000 bottles
per year". This is several hundred per person per day, which seems
rather excessive, so I presume the author was told "six billion",
and used the 10^12 rather than the 10^9 that I suspect was meant.

Tim
--
Tim Sharrock (tim [at] sharrock.org.uk)
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264458 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 00:07
Klaus Drechsler  
Alec Cawley wrote:
>
> While it is allege dthat billion means 10^12 this side of the pond, I
> have never, ever, actually seen that used for real. Whenever anyone
> mentions a billion, it is 10^9.

Hmm, I would say you can reduce that 'anyone' to the english speaking
part. Visit some none-english-speaking countries, and voilà, there you
have it, your milliard and 10^12-billion. And quite common there, that is.

> Also, I think we need a word for 10^9
> (which does occur in normal use, for example when discussing national or
> NHS budgets) much more than we need one for 10^12 (which is
> exceptional).

Weeeell, dealing with world population or the country's budget deficit,
the common milliard is a a handy thing. I indeed hear it from time to
time, even in the press coverage.

> Sio, IMO, the alleged British usage is (a) fictitious, and
> (b) useless, and I admit that I am ready (in this matter alone) to
> follow the American style.

Traitor! Traitor!
No, honestly, I suppose the greater part of germany's people - even if
they can speak english - are not even aware that there exists a
difference. So everyone can stick to his favorite numeric style and
should only try to pay a little attention when it comes to international
high finance or stuff like that, where you might come into a situation
where you have to explain to your boss that the Big Deal will profit
only a thousandth of that what he calculated, sorry, thought you meant
*that* billion, silly mistake that.

Good night,
Klaus
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264460 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 00:21
alec  
In article <e40a01$2jc$1 [at] tree.broomstick.com>, art [at] broomstick.com
says...
> Alec Cawley <alec [at] spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > While it is allege dthat billion means 10^12 this side of the pond, I
> > have never, ever, actually seen that used for real. Whenever anyone
> > mentions a billion, it is 10^9. Also, I think we need a word for 10^9
>
> What's wrong with "Tera" and "Giga"? As in "The mayor has granted funding a
> Terapound project to adjust the water level in the Thames in preparation for
> the Southwark beach resort project."

Nothing wrong per se, and I as a scientifically trained person would be
delighted to use such tetminology. But It Has Been Decided that such
things are beyond the capability of Joe Public (whose dollars actually
provide the multi trillion dollar, or Teradollar, budget). Never for a
moment suggest that those in power like to keep the voters in the dark.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264476 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 08:26
geminii  
On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:23:13 -0400, "Arthur Hagen" <art [at] broomstick.com>
wrote:

>What's wrong with "Tera" and "Giga"? As in "The mayor has granted funding a
>Terapound project to adjust the water level in the Thames in preparation for
>the Southwark beach resort project."

I think they're currently having a war against Tera.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264488 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 11:20
Graycat  
On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:10:08 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
<art [at] broomstick.com> jotted down:

>Graycat <graycat.meow [at] gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Though I've never seen/heard anyone use those last two -
>> basically once you're talking trilions you're talking
>> fantasy numbers anyway - as in "my dad has a billion
>> trillion times more money than yours". What number of zeroes
>> that _actually_ means is then rather unimportant.
>
>Not entirely true. I remember working at the international transfers
>department of a bank, and we had to send back a batch of paper-trail
>calculators headquarters had ordered as replacement for the old noisy
>machines, because the new ones could only do 12+2 digits, and we needed at
>least 18. Some currencies are devalued, and when you're talking about
>interbank fund exchanges you can end up with pretty huge amounts.

Sure, but that, like maths, is specialist usage, not common
talk.

--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264504 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 15:00
robcraine  
Graycat wrote:
> On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:10:08 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
> <art [at] broomstick.com> jotted down:
>
> >Graycat <graycat.meow [at] gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Though I've never seen/heard anyone use those last two -
> >> basically once you're talking trilions you're talking
> >> fantasy numbers anyway - as in "my dad has a billion
> >> trillion times more money than yours". What number of zeroes
> >> that _actually_ means is then rather unimportant.
> >
> >Not entirely true. I remember working at the international transfers
> >department of a bank, and we had to send back a batch of paper-trail
> >calculators headquarters had ordered as replacement for the old noisy
> >machines, because the new ones could only do 12+2 digits, and we needed at
> >least 18. Some currencies are devalued, and when you're talking about
> >interbank fund exchanges you can end up with pretty huge amounts.
>
> Sure, but that, like maths, is specialist usage, not common
> talk.
>
Not neccessarily. Not in the countries in question... For example one
british pound is worth about 50,000 Romanian Lei - admitedly that is
now a semi-defunct currency, which is being replaced by the new lei...
but in Romania there may be a different word for big numbers that could
be used to describe house prices - 5billion Lei (about 100,000 pounds
or 200,000 USD) would have a definite meaning.

There's a slightly interesting article on billion =10^9 or10^12 here
http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxbill00.html
Apparently "in 1974, [..] Prime Minister Harold Wilson announced to the
House of Commons that the meaning of "billion" in papers concerning
Government statistics would thenceforth be 10^9, in conformity with
U.S. usage."

Rob

--
There are three types of people in the world: those who can count and
those who can't.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264505 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 15:12
Graycat  
On 12 May 2006 06:00:20 -0700, "robcraine"
<robcraine [at] gmail.com> jotted down:

>
>Graycat wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:10:08 -0400, "Arthur Hagen"
>> <art [at] broomstick.com> jotted down:
>>

>> >Not entirely true. I remember working at the international transfers
>> >department of a bank, and we had to send back a batch of paper-trail
>> >calculators headquarters had ordered as replacement for the old noisy
>> >machines, because the new ones could only do 12+2 digits, and we needed at
>> >least 18. Some currencies are devalued, and when you're talking about
>> >interbank fund exchanges you can end up with pretty huge amounts.
>>
>> Sure, but that, like maths, is specialist usage, not common
>> talk.
>>
>Not neccessarily. Not in the countries in question...

Sorry, yes. I was talking about Swedish people in Sweden
though.

--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264510 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 15:44
FiX01  
Stacie Hanes wrote :


> How do languages other than English deal with large numbers, over multiples
> of billions?
>
> How do Spanish, French, etc. deal with "10 to the 12th power" and suchlike?

In french, it's:

10^6 million
10^9 milliard
10^12 billion
10^15 billiard
10^18 trillion
10^21 trilliard
10^6X X-llion
10^(6+3)X X-lliard

However,
- numbers over the order of milliard are seldom needed
- "million" and "milliard" can, depending on the context, also mean
"uncountable" (typically, "I have a million things to do" or "I have a
milliard things to do")
- if precision is needed, people will often use the "10 puissance X"
(10 to te power of X) expression rather than compute the relevant name
to use : the avogadro number is 6,022 10^23, not 602,2 trilliard...

FiX
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264513 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 16:06
Niall Smyth  
This is the first time I've ever posted to a newsgroup so I'm not 100%
sure this is the right way.

In NE Asia (China, Korea, Japan etc) everything goes up in 10 to the
power of 4. In Japanese, for example 10,000 is one 'man, 100,000,000 is
one 'oku', a trillion is one 'chou' and 10 to the 16th is one 'ken'.

Makes maths in Japanese painful.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264515 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 16:51
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264516 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 17:00
Graycat  
On Fri, 12 May 2006 23:06:16 +0900, Niall Smyth
<poshniallo [at] agate.plala.or.jp> jotted down:

>This is the first time I've ever posted to a newsgroup so I'm not 100%
>sure this is the right way.

You're doing good so far. It's usually considered helpful to
leave in the text you are replying to though - that helps
the reader figure out the context of you message.

--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264525 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 17:34
Stacie Hanes  
Niall Smyth wrote:
> This is the first time I've ever posted to a newsgroup so I'm not
> 100% sure this is the right way.

And on my thread!

Welcome.

--
Stacie, 4th swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons, Bondage-happy predator,
Speaker-To-Students, AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion &
AFPDeliciousSnack to 8'FED "If you can't be a good example, you'll
just have to be a horrible warning." C. Aird, _His Burial Too_
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264586 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 20:48
eero.suoranta  
Stacie Hanes wrote:

> Niall Smyth wrote:
> > This is the first time I've ever posted to a newsgroup so I'm not
> > 100% sure this is the right way.
>
> And on my thread!
>
> Welcome.

And faucetgo!
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264587 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 20:52
raltbos  
geminii [at] tpg.com.au wrote:

> On Thu, 11 May 2006 17:23:13 -0400, "Arthur Hagen" <art [at] broomstick.com>
> wrote:
>
> >What's wrong with "Tera" and "Giga"? As in "The mayor has granted funding a
> >Terapound project to adjust the water level in the Thames in preparation for
> >the Southwark beach resort project."
>
> I think they're currently having a war against Tera.

Terra. The war is against Terra. Not terra, the colour; Terra, the
planet.

Richard
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #264588 ] Fr, 12 Mai 2006 20:52
raltbos  
Bruce Richardson <itsbruce [at] uklinux.net> wrote:

> FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr <FiX01 [at] club.lemonde.fr> wrote:
> > In french, it's:
> >
> > 10^6 million
> > 10^9 milliard
>
> I remember watching the Six Million Dollar Man when staying in Lyon. In
> French that's "L'homme qui valait six milliards". English does not dub
> well into French. That particular episode had an egghead student who
> kept saying "Wow!" very slowly, which was translated as "Formidable!".
>
> English and German dub to eachother very well.

Unsinn, Daddy, as the German-dubbed character told his Vater.

English and German may dub reasonably well to one another when you only
look at the rhythm; the result is still (at least on German television)
barely acceptable half-speech.

Richard
Re: Very Large Numbers [message #264662 ] Sa, 13 Mai 2006 02:16
carlmuller  
>While it is allege dthat billion means 10^12 this side of the pond, I
>have never, ever, actually seen that used for real.

But you can tell that Patrick Moore (sky at night) *really* wants to
use it that way,
since he says "thousand million" when he means 10^9.
Probably thinking that dang young kid Harold Wilson and his modern
ways...
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #266770 ] Sa, 13 Mai 2006 19:36
Jens Ayton  
Richard Bos:
> Bruce Richardson:
>>
>> I remember watching the Six Million Dollar Man when staying in Lyon. In
>> French that's "L'homme qui valait six milliards". English does not dub
>> well into French. That particular episode had an egghead student who
>> kept saying "Wow!" very slowly, which was translated as "Formidable!".
>>
>> English and German dub to eachother very well.
>
> Unsinn, Daddy, as the German-dubbed character told his Vater.
>
> English and German may dub reasonably well to one another when you only
> look at the rhythm; the result is still (at least on German television)
> barely acceptable half-speech.

Dubbing is evil, and should be banned in the Geneva conventions.


--
\\\\ Jens Ayton, Fratello di Vetinari 36.3636363636364% insane
\\\\\__, Bringing sarcastic one-liners to the common hedgehog since 1999
\\\\\`/
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #266817 ] Sa, 13 Mai 2006 22:25
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #266843 ] So, 14 Mai 2006 00:42
Rocky Frisco  
Bruce Richardson wrote:

> Jens Ayton <PKWVQQGMIMEU [at] spammotel.com> wrote:
>
>> Dubbing is evil, and should be banned in the Geneva conventions.
>
>
> But then we would be deprived of delights like Calling All Monsters (one
> of the many Godzilla films), where Japanese peasant farmers are dubbed
> into English with authentic hillbilly accents.

Adds film title to "must see" category.

-Rocky
--
O'Toole's Corollary: Murphy was an optimist.
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #266892 ] So, 14 Mai 2006 13:07
Notifier Deamon  
Post removed (X-No-Archive: yes)
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #267011 ] Mo, 15 Mai 2006 11:26
raltbos  
Alec Cawley <alec [at] spamspam.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <e40a01$2jc$1 [at] tree.broomstick.com>, art [at] broomstick.com
> says...
> > Alec Cawley <alec [at] spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > While it is allege dthat billion means 10^12 this side of the pond, I
> > > have never, ever, actually seen that used for real. Whenever anyone
> > > mentions a billion, it is 10^9. Also, I think we need a word for 10^9
> >
> > What's wrong with "Tera" and "Giga"? As in "The mayor has granted funding a
> > Terapound project to adjust the water level in the Thames in preparation for
> > the Southwark beach resort project."
>
> Nothing wrong per se, and I as a scientifically trained person would be
> delighted to use such tetminology. But It Has Been Decided that such
> things are beyond the capability of Joe Public

s/Decided/observed/, I'm afraid. Big Numbers Are Scary. Big Numbers Are
Maths. Maths Is Scary. It's amazing how many apparently intelligent
people get into a cerebral coma when faced with more than three digits
at a time.

> Never for a
> moment suggest that those in power like to keep the voters in the dark.

In this case, I fear, it is the voters that want to be kept in the dark,
rather than facing those scary number thingies that odd people like
mathematicians and "computer freaks" are so familiar with.

*sigh*

Non-comps, the lot of them.

Richard
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #267029 ] Mo, 15 Mai 2006 13:42
Graycat  
On Mon, 15 May 2006 09:26:02 GMT, raltbos [at] xs4all.nl (Richard
Bos) jotted down:

>Alec Cawley <alec [at] spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <e40a01$2jc$1 [at] tree.broomstick.com>, art [at] broomstick.com
>> says...

>> > What's wrong with "Tera" and "Giga"? As in "The mayor has granted funding a
>> > Terapound project to adjust the water level in the Thames in preparation for
>> > the Southwark beach resort project."
>>
>> Nothing wrong per se, and I as a scientifically trained person would be
>> delighted to use such tetminology. But It Has Been Decided that such
>> things are beyond the capability of Joe Public
>
>s/Decided/observed/, I'm afraid. Big Numbers Are Scary. Big Numbers Are
>Maths. Maths Is Scary. It's amazing how many apparently intelligent
>people get into a cerebral coma when faced with more than three digits
>at a time.

Yo, stop being such snobs. It's not called a "Terapound"
because it never has been - that expression isn't part of
common language, whereas billions etc are. Language is what
people use - no one uses Terapounds, so it's not part of
common language. It would be confusing to most people, it
would be confusing to me, but not because they, or I, are
stupid, but because we are unused to the word.

I took physics at school, I learned what Tera means, but
I've since forgotten exactly how many zeroes it is - not
because I get scared by maths or big numbers, but because I
never use it in my daily life, I have no practical reason to
know it and it doesn't interest me that much.

"Kilo" is one such scientific prefix that has made it into
common language, in kilogram and kilometers. People use that
all the time, completely naturally. It has nothing to do
with the fact that a kilo only signifyes three zeroes, many
people I'd hazard don't even know that's what it means, and
everything to do with the fact that it's become common
language.

Everyone who uses the metric system knows what a kilogram
is, therefore it has meaning. I don't have to sit down and
think about how much a kilo weighs, I immediately know it's
about the weight of a standard carton of milk. That makes
the term useful - it's shortlinked to my physical memory and
experience.

If you can give Terapound that same immediate reaction, that
in-built immediate _meaning_, people will be happy to use
it, whether they know what "Tera" means in Greek or not. But
until you do, it's gobbledygook.

--
Elin
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
The Oswalds DW casting award - Vote Now!
http://www.student.lu.se/~his02ero/Oswald/index.html
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #267031 ] Mo, 15 Mai 2006 13:45
Arthur Hagen  
Richard Bos <raltbos [at] xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> s/Decided/observed/, I'm afraid. Big Numbers Are Scary. Big Numbers
> Are Maths. Maths Is Scary. It's amazing how many apparently
> intelligent people get into a cerebral coma when faced with more than
> three digits at a time.

"Apparently intelligent"? I'd say that having their mental curtain lowered
when faced with maths makes them appear to be *not* being very intelligent,
no matter whether they are or not.

Regards,
--
*Art
Re: [I] Very Large Numbers [message #267034 ] Mo, 15 Mai 2006 14:13
Orjan Westin  
Arthur Hagen wrote:
> Richard Bos <raltbos [at] xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>
>> s/Decided/observed/, I'm afraid. Big Numbers Are Scary. Big Numbers
>> Are Maths. Maths Is Scary. It's amazing how many apparently
>> intelligent people get into a cerebral coma when faced with more than
>> three digits at a time.
>
> "Apparently intelligent"? I'd say that having their mental curtain
> lowered when faced with maths makes them appear to be *not* being
> very intelligent, no matter whether they are or not.

Big numbers aren't scary, and people do not, as a rule, become stupid
when faced with a large number. People have no problem accepting there
are millions of people living in their country, or that there are
billions/milliards of people in the world, for instance.

Not to mention mega- and gigabytes, and megahertz. But people prefer to
be able to relate to things. On a recordable CD, it's easier to think
about it storing 300 digital photos, or 200 MP3s, than 734003200 8-bit
characters.

That's why you often see comparisons, like giving weight in multiples of
cars or buses, or height in comparison with the Eiffel tower or Empire
State Building.

Without something to relate to, a big number is just a big number,
without meaning. Alpha Centauri is 3.8 times ten to the power of
sixteen kilometers away from the sun, but that is just a number. If you
say that a high-speed train, travelling there at a speed of 200km/h,
would need over two hundred million centuries to get there, it's a bit
more understandable.

It puts things into perspective, and gives something to relate to. That
might be what Richard is talking about, that many people do not have the
kind of mindset that can grasp large, abstract numbers or more or less
automatically convert them into something they can relate to.

That's not being stupid. That's simply thinking differently. I guess
that explains why Mac owners rarely do the megaherts dicksizing PC
owners have historically indulged in. ;-)

Orjan
--
The Tale of Westala and Villtin
http://tale.cunobaros.com/
Fiction, Thoughts and Software
http://www.cunobaros.com/
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